Montana State University losing $13m

[Cataholic]

Guys, I have no crystal ball, but I can see this thread getting locked soon. I think the discussion is good, but it’s all the other personal digs and cynical crap that make both of you seem petty, and frankly it makes both of your guys’ points much weaker.
I actually WANT to know more about each side’s point of view and become more knowledgeable myself. But please for the rest of us have this discussion as two Bobcat fans sitting next to each other at a football game, still on the same team. And honestly neither of you can ‘win’ this debate, except to maybe learn something from one another.

I agree. I have tried to put some taking points out with some information to back it up. Maybe some of my digs (like TDS) could have been removed, but I really tried to keep it civil. I honestly don’t know how to have a conversation with the guy. He deflected on every single question posed and then he goes off on some other tangent. Do you see him being able to sit and have a “serious” conversation with him about this stuff at a game? I asked him for an example and he responds “watch the news” or “ask Jeeves”. But he does have a grasp on how to use emojis. I give up.

[Cataholic]

Buy a telsa mask needs your money


There is NO legislation currently drafted which removes taxes from SSA or overtime. It is merely a talking point.

Please provide the link if you know of one. Not a link to talking points, but the actual bill language, with the sponsors.

The budget DOES cut 880 billion from Medicare, MedicAid and SSD.

But we don’t need empathy, compassion nor humanity.

We got real MT men here who can ask “hold my beer” and “fafo”. That’s all we need.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-con ... 2/all-info

[DMMDCats]

Buy a telsa mask needs your money


There is NO legislation currently drafted which removes taxes from SSA or overtime. It is merely a talking point.

Please provide the link if you know of one. Not a link to talking points, but the actual bill language, with the sponsors.

The budget DOES cut 880 billion from Medicare, MedicAid and SSD.

But we don’t need empathy, compassion nor humanity.

We got real MT men here who can ask “hold my beer” and “fafo”. That’s all we need.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-con ... 2/all-info

Thanks I will take a look when I can.


Forgot one:
“I’m your huckleberry”

lol

[The Butcher]

Guys, I have no crystal ball, but I can see this thread getting locked soon. I think the discussion is good, but it’s all the other personal digs and cynical crap that make both of you seem petty, and frankly it makes both of your guys’ points much weaker.
I actually WANT to know more about each side’s point of view and become more knowledgeable myself. But please for the rest of us have this discussion as two Bobcat fans sitting next to each other at a football game, still on the same team. And honestly neither of you can ‘win’ this debate, except to maybe learn something from one another.

Fair point. A real discussion is worth having, but when one side constantly shifts arguments, dodges questions, and throws in culture war distractions, it’s hard to take seriously. Happy to debate like two Bobcat fans at a game—just as long as we’re both actually playing fair.

[Cataholic]

I had to share this. Democrats were actually commenting how bad the CR bill was on Friday, before the bill was even released on Saturday. It reminded me of this thread. And no cuts to Medicare, veterans, etc. How can this even be defended?

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP82SmhUj/

[The Butcher]

I had to share this. Democrats were actually commenting how bad the CR bill was on Friday, before the bill was even released on Saturday. It reminded me of this thread. And no cuts to Medicare, veterans, etc. How can this even be defended?

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP82SmhUj/

I don’t use TikTok for several reasons—do you have a reliable source for this information?

[Cataholic]

I had to share this. Democrats were actually commenting how bad the CR bill was on Friday, before the bill was even released on Saturday. It reminded me of this thread. And no cuts to Medicare, veterans, etc. How can this even be defended?

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP82SmhUj/

I don’t use TikTok for several reasons—do you have a reliable source for this information?

Not sure if you have ever used TikTok or watched any videos on it, but TikTok is basically like Instagram or any other social media platform. People, politicians, companies, etc all have TikTok channnels as part of their social media platforms. This particular guy is on all kinds of different outlets like YouTube, etc.

I could use the exact same response you did on an earlier post: “just read the news - it’s right in front of you”, but alas, this might help. It is from NBC which should fall on your radar of trusted news organizations. They definitely lean left, so any cuts to Medicare, etc that have been your key talking points, would have been highlighted. That is not the case in this article. Basically, the Dems are mad that they didn’t get to have any input on the bill. There is very little discussion about having issues with the bills contents.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna196029

So if the government shuts down, whose fault is it this time? Sounds like petty move by the Dems. Less about bill content, more about not having any power.

[Cataholic]

Here is another news article. This one from ABC. They actually highlighted the increase to Veterans funding, decrease to military spending and increased funding for the low income WIC program.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/hou ... =119686681

From the article:

While there is an additional $6 billion for veterans' health care, non-defense spending is about $13 billion lower than fiscal year 2024 levels.

The legislation leaves out emergency funding for disasters, but provides a boost in funding for Immigration and Customs Enforcement deportation operations.

It also increases funding for W.I.C. by about $500 million, a program that provides free groceries to low-income women and children.

[Cataholic]

And lastly, the CR Bill was released on Saturday. Why in the world were Democrats (were you included?) trashing the CR for various cuts before they even saw the bill. Here is NPR with the article regarding the release.

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/08/g-s1-527 ... down-trump

[77matman]

You’ve stated the promise of Reagannomics / trickle down economics. A rising tide floats all boats. Studies have indicated however that most of the freed up tax dollars didn’t get reinvested in the economy to help all income levels. Mainly just the well to do. Although the country did ok this article states the county actually did better under higher tax rates.

Instead of reinvesting corporations bought back their stock which drove up their EPS which coincidentally drove up one of the larger matrix’s of senior manager’s performance review and thus their bonuses. Individuals did what rich individuals do. They bought new toys. Yachts and air planes.

If you ask yourself when was American the greatest a lot of folks would say the 60’s and 70’s. There was a strong middle class and high marginal tax rates.

I vote conservative more often than not, but giving the richest people who really don’t care about society more money, probably isn’t the best for society.

In his book, Mitt probably said it best. He didn’t know how republicans convinced middle class voters conservative policies were good for them.

https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... -promises/

Good post. And I agree that no economic policy is fool proof. However, in your post you mention that the rich buy yachts and airplanes instead of reinvesting. Who do you think builds these yachts and airplanes? Will workers benefit from building those “toys”. I would say yes.

Completely agree though that there are all kinds of economic policies and their effectiveness is debatable. I think regardless of economic policy is that just collecting taxes and spending on government waste is not good. Shouldn’t the government be spending on things that actually benefit the US?

EDIT - Don’t forget that one of the major tax cuts is on social security, tips and overtime. That will go directly into people’s pockets. Not the rich.

Sorry for rehashing all of the above. I don’t know enough to shorten my response.

Cataholic, your correct that the workers who build yachts and private planes benefit from the jobs they create. Not sure because I haven’t shopped either of them but believe a good number of them are not made in the US meaning those $s are leaving the nation.

And yes, all gov spending should be made on behalf of the citizens. I would suggest that includes some dollars that are spent outside the county. History has proved that isolationism isn’t a good long term strategy. I believe in a time that you can reach into your back pocket and make a call on the other side of the would it’s really not now.

Accountability is vital. Isn’t that what the IG’s were for??

Wealth distribution has become more uneven than the gilded age when the robber barons ran rampant. The middle class is becoming smaller and smaller. I’m good with tax cuts that benefit them but someone has to pay the deficit. Asking the ultra rich to pay more (which is consistent with era when there was a strong middle class) is ok.

Shouldn’t those that have the most to gain from a stable society pay the most??

[Cataholic]

You’ve stated the promise of Reagannomics / trickle down economics. A rising tide floats all boats. Studies have indicated however that most of the freed up tax dollars didn’t get reinvested in the economy to help all income levels. Mainly just the well to do. Although the country did ok this article states the county actually did better under higher tax rates.

Instead of reinvesting corporations bought back their stock which drove up their EPS which coincidentally drove up one of the larger matrix’s of senior manager’s performance review and thus their bonuses. Individuals did what rich individuals do. They bought new toys. Yachts and air planes.

If you ask yourself when was American the greatest a lot of folks would say the 60’s and 70’s. There was a strong middle class and high marginal tax rates.

I vote conservative more often than not, but giving the richest people who really don’t care about society more money, probably isn’t the best for society.

In his book, Mitt probably said it best. He didn’t know how republicans convinced middle class voters conservative policies were good for them.

https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... -promises/

Good post. And I agree that no economic policy is fool proof. However, in your post you mention that the rich buy yachts and airplanes instead of reinvesting. Who do you think builds these yachts and airplanes? Will workers benefit from building those “toys”. I would say yes.

Completely agree though that there are all kinds of economic policies and their effectiveness is debatable. I think regardless of economic policy is that just collecting taxes and spending on government waste is not good. Shouldn’t the government be spending on things that actually benefit the US?

EDIT - Don’t forget that one of the major tax cuts is on social security, tips and overtime. That will go directly into people’s pockets. Not the rich.

Sorry for rehashing all of the above. I don’t know enough to shorten my response.

Cataholic, your correct that the workers who build yachts and private planes benefit from the jobs they create. Not sure because I haven’t shopped either of them but believe a good number of them are not made in the US meaning those $s are leaving the nation.

And yes, all gov spending should be made on behalf of the citizens. I would suggest that includes some dollars that are spent outside the county. History has proved that isolationism isn’t a good long term strategy. I believe in a time that you can reach into your back pocket and make a call on the other side of the would it’s really not now.

Accountability is vital. Isn’t that what the IG’s were for??

Wealth distribution has become more uneven than the gilded age when the robber barons ran rampant. The middle class is becoming smaller and smaller. I’m good with tax cuts that benefit them but someone has to pay the deficit. Asking the ultra rich to pay more (which is consistent with era when there was a strong middle class) is ok.

Shouldn’t those that have the most to gain from a stable society pay the most??

You make some great points. I don’t know where jets or yachts are made, but I am sure the highest income owners are building new homes and purchasing new cars. Like I said before, each economic theory has some truth to it. The full truth probably lies somewhere in between all of them.

I also agree that isolationism is bad. I don’t think that is what we are doing though. We are cutting the wasteful spending. For example, this admin is not walking away from NATO. We are asking others to provide their fair share though. How crazy is it that the USA provides 75% of the funding at NATO?

Like you said, accountability is key. How long has the joke existed regarding government workers and their beaurochracy and lack of efficiency? Multiple past presidents tried to do the same exact thing and they were cheered for their efforts, but failed in their results. Why is this guy getting roasted for actually eliminating waste? And they have acknowledged mistakes which they say will be rectified.

I agree that the ultra rich should pay more. Totally cool with that. The question might be what is the middle class? I believe the two biggest costs facing families today is housing and healthcare. These are out of control. How much money does a person have to make to own a small home in Bozeman? And then throw healthcare in if you are self employed. Your monthly costs from just those two could be around $5,000 per month. That is crazy.

My thought is that a thriving middle class will require affordable housing. Healthcare is a close second. Let’s see some efficient programs to get these under control before we spend money on less needed programs.

Sorry for the long winded post, but the deficit is clearly an issue. We should always have a balanced budget for government spending. I saw a statistic that our national debt is growing by $1 trillion per year. It is unconscionable that we continue to spend away the future of our children.

[77matman]

No problems with rooting out the waste in government and elsewhere. Especially my household. . Given the process Elon is using, the evidence he’s providing and the errors he’s admitted so far I just don’t have a lot of faith in his outcome and more importantly the long term efficacy. Hope I’m wrong, but I wouldn’t bet on something that seems to put a priority on delivering a television performance.

I believe NATO funding has a lot to do with supporting armament and munitions manufacturing in the US. Manufacturing that stayed in America. So we kind of helped our self's by helping NATO. Asking NATO to up there game probably doesn’t hurt that segment of our economy’s feelings.

Agree with housing and healthcare. If real savings is a priority looking at Medicaid and Medicare should be first IMHO. Procedural, errors and fraud. After over 50 years there has to be a better way. Have you looked at a Medicare EOB lately.

[Cataholic]

No problems with rooting out the waste in government and elsewhere. Especially my household. . Given the process Elon is using, the evidence he’s providing and the errors he’s admitted so far I just don’t have a lot of faith in his outcome and more importantly the long term efficacy. Hope I’m wrong, but I wouldn’t bet on something that seems to put a priority on delivering a television performance.

I believe NATO funding has a lot to do with supporting armament and munitions manufacturing in the US. Manufacturing that stayed in America. So we kind of helped our self's by helping NATO. Asking NATO to up there game probably doesn’t hurt that segment of our economy’s feelings.

Agree with housing and healthcare. If real savings is a priority looking at Medicaid and Medicare should be first IMHO. Procedural, errors and fraud. After over 50 years there has to be a better way. Have you looked at a Medicare EOB lately.

I haven’t looked at a Medicare EOB, but definitely understand the absolute sh1t show that the medical industry and billing has become. You have to watch this TikTok below. I know this happens every day and I amazed that stuff like this is not being aggressively reported.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP82DvnqX/

To recap for those that don’t have TikTok, this guy received a $600 bill for an emergency ambulance ride. He realized that they didn’t have his insurance so he supplied to them and they sent a revised invoice. With the insurance, his responsibility after insurance paid was now $1,200. The video is of his call to the ambulance provider to discuss the bill. The service for an uninsured person is provided a discount and the total bill was $600. If there is the insurance, that same ride was $2,200. His insurance paid $1,000 so now his responsibility after coverage is $1,200. HIS ACTUAL OUT OF POCKET COST DOUBLED WITH INSURANCE VERSUS SERVICES WITH NO INSURANCE. Isn’t this completely wrong?

Sorry to digress, but you say that Medicare could be ripe for a cost savings foray by DOGE. So why do you feel DOGE can’t find similar fraud, abuse and inefficiency at other government agencies?

[Rich K]

I see MSU is in the top 45!

What is this all about?

[77matman]

Hey Cataholic.

First, Elon is not doing an audit. He is claiming to find fraud or corruption across several major departments without taking the time to understand just what they do and how they operate. He would need a year just to understand what these departments are actually doing.
An actual good faith audit process would take the time to understand what's being done, would not tweet the "results" of it.

An audit typically follows these key steps: planning, risk assessment, fieldwork (data collection and analysis), internal control assessment, reporting, and follow-up. The reason for this process is to get the best outcome from the effort.

The sending millions of dollars of condoms to Gaza is an example of the level of competence present in Elons effort. I’m not aware that there has been any effort made to make evidence available for the accusations made. Please site if there is.

The biggest problem from my perspective is the lost opportunity to actually take a creditable dive into government operations to find improvements in processes, procedures and outcomes and along the way document fraud and abuse; and size.

The opportunity for long term good is lost with elons theatrical slash and burn. With his daily sensational reporting (condoms to Gaza) doesn’t it feel like he’s more trying to stoke emotions vs logical thinking and real change.

[Cataholic]

I can agree that Elon and Trumps communication methods could benefit with a change. But hopefully you recognize that their political opponents are tweeting their own propaganda every waking moment as well. This is a new generation of social media that I am guessing both of us are too old to understand.

I saw a video today of President Obama creating a department to eliminate government waste and it was headed up by VP Joe Biden. That was 16 years ago and nothing was accomplished. And I didn’t hear anyone complaining about eliminating waste and they still didn’t get anything done. Instead, 12 years later, Biden ends up hiring another 40,000 IRS employees? That don’t make sense.

I have been fortunate and have had a very successful career. A key skill to success was identifying issues and providing solutions. Some issues and problems are so glaring that an in depth audit is not necessary. Take a look at Stacy Abrams affiliated group (the up and coming Democrat from Georgia) where her “non-profit” was awarded $2 Billion to battle climate change. The organization getting the funding had a total of $100 in revenues the year before. And their list of projects was so underwhelming that a blind mouse could detect something was wrong.

I don’t like the idea of complete removal of departments, but some of these departments have been such dramatic failures that an in-depth analysis is not required. Did you realize that when the Dept of Education was created in 1979 the US was widely ranked as having the number one educational system in the world? Today, we are ranked at 40 or worse. And their focus lately has been DEI. I think that a complete overhaul is way overdue.

I also share your concerns about good programs getting cut. Hopefully this is fixed and caught. I see that some cuts were already walked back. I am sure that Musk recognizes that every cut is going to be scrutinized and that he can’t make mistakes or he loses credibility. We will see, but I think the jury is still out on this.

There is more to come on the fraud and waste. It is my understanding that a lot of these findings have been turned over to the Justice Department to investigate.

I actually think that both of us want the same thing. I have agreed with pretty much everything you posted. We just differ on how to address it. We might sit on opposite sides of the aisle, but we ultimately want to see our government run better.

Here is a hypothetical for you. If Musk (who is possibly the world’s most successful businessman - and a former Democrat and believer of clean energy) is not the right person, who is? The GAO has sent out actual reports of fraud and abuse in the past and nobody has ever acted on them.

[ClowderUp]

I see MSU is in the top 45!

What is this all about?

Hmm. Not sure about this. They are talking about graduate programs only. I, a white guy who went to graduate school at MSU-Bozeman, and the other guys from the public system in the USA, couldn't hold a candle to the Asians. Or even the Europeans for that matter. Not so sure white people were being discriminated against.

[Cataholic]

No problems with rooting out the waste in government and elsewhere. Especially my household. . Given the process Elon is using, the evidence he’s providing and the errors he’s admitted so far I just don’t have a lot of faith in his outcome and more importantly the long term efficacy. Hope I’m wrong, but I wouldn’t bet on something that seems to put a priority on delivering a television performance.

I believe NATO funding has a lot to do with supporting armament and munitions manufacturing in the US. Manufacturing that stayed in America. So we kind of helped our self's by helping NATO. Asking NATO to up there game probably doesn’t hurt that segment of our economy’s feelings.

Agree with housing and healthcare. If real savings is a priority looking at Medicaid and Medicare should be first IMHO. Procedural, errors and fraud. After over 50 years there has to be a better way. Have you looked at a Medicare EOB lately.

I haven’t looked at a Medicare EOB, but definitely understand the absolute sh1t show that the medical industry and billing has become. You have to watch this TikTok below. I know this happens every day and I amazed that stuff like this is not being aggressively reported.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP82DvnqX/

To recap for those that don’t have TikTok, this guy received a $600 bill for an emergency ambulance ride. He realized that they didn’t have his insurance so he supplied to them and they sent a revised invoice. With the insurance, his responsibility after insurance paid was now $1,200. The video is of his call to the ambulance provider to discuss the bill. The service for an uninsured person is provided a discount and the total bill was $600. If there is the insurance, that same ride was $2,200. His insurance paid $1,000 so now his responsibility after coverage is $1,200. HIS ACTUAL OUT OF POCKET COST DOUBLED WITH INSURANCE VERSUS SERVICES WITH NO INSURANCE. Isn’t this completely wrong?

Sorry to digress, but you say that Medicare could be ripe for a cost savings foray by DOGE. So why do you feel DOGE can’t find similar fraud, abuse and inefficiency at other government agencies?

Bumped this thread because it is related. Why has our system allowed this to happen?

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP82PBKtV/

[77matman]

It’s simple. Insurance companies get volume discounts. Might not like the result but, can you tell folks how to operate their business. That would be socialism, right?

[tdub]

It’s simple. Insurance companies get volume discounts. Might not like the result but, can you tell folks how to operate their business. That would be socialism, right?

This comment really confuses me. If an insurance company gets a volume discount, then why does the insurance company get charged more than a cash-paying individual?? Maybe I’m missing something.